Understanding Through Listening: Children Converse as Teachers Observe
By Jeanne Anderson
Nestled among the majestic jack pines and the white paper birch, you'll find Schoolcraft Learning Community, a charter school located at Lac du Bois on the campus of the Concordia Language Village in Bemidji, Minnesota. Up the hill from the lake, teacher Melanie Nelson and her crew of kindergarten and first-grade students are completing a-five month study of trees. These "kinderfirst" students studied wildlife and their habitats, and examined various species of trees. In late April, I had the opportunity to sit down with Melanie and her crew and conduct a science talk.
SCIENCE TALKS
Science talks are discussions about big questions. A technique which is suitable for any grade level, science talks are a valuable assessment tool and help teachers to hear the depth of children's understanding of a concept. They also provide space for students to think like scientists; to wonder about, hypothesize, and talk about how things work, the origins of phenomena, and the essence of things.

Science talks provide a window on students' thinking. They can help teachers get a clear picture of what children really know, their grasp of scientific vocabulary, as well as any gaps in their knowledge. Teachers use their observations to then make an accurate diagnosis, and plan hands-on activities, fieldwork, and experiments that will address students' misconceptions, questions, and hypotheses. Students will become more engaged in these activities because they truly want to know and want to check their hypotheses. Science talks make students curious and motivate them to work harder and to investigate. Children learn to acknowledge others' remarks and opinions as well as take turns and listen thoughtfully. Children face each other in a circle so everyone can be seen, and the teacher listens and records the conversation.
Science talks can be useful at the beginning, middle, or end of a learning expedition by providing a path for passions to be explored, or as a reflection of where the students have been on their learning journey. This is one way of informing your own teaching and techniques. Science talks afford an interesting assessment alternative to the KWL chart. In fact, these talks do what the charts do not -- they connect ideas and bring out children's conceptions as well their facts.
SETTING THE TONE
We begin the morning with a walk among the trees. Each child chooses a tree to examine. Children are directed to look carefully at their trees, observe the differences, notice the similarities, and wonder. Students are looking with scientist's eyes and making complex discoveries. They begin touching the bark, looking at the buds, leaves, and needles. Some students lay on their backs under the canopy of their tree to get a better idea of the vast height. Then we head back into the classroom.
Once inside, we ask students to mimic the growth of a tree. One by one, the students offer their impression of a tree growing. With each act comes a new idea. Soon roots are growing too, slowly arms reach out to the sky, and tiny fingers act as buds and pop out into leaves. At one point, one of the students falls to the ground and announces, "I was cut down by a logger."
We begin a conversation about scientists.
Listen in . . .
Jeanne: What does a scientist do?
Sade: A scientist is a person who talks and writes down ideas.
Russell: A scientist finds things like bones and does research.
Brody: Scientists record facts and help others learn. They make observations.
And, after establishing some guidelines for the conversation, Melanie and I sit back and listen . . .
Elizabeth: I was wondering how tall trees get. How do they know when to stop growing?
Tessa: Trees can get very tall in Minnesota. We have mostly tall trees here.
Sade: They can actually get over 100 feet tall.
Anna: It depends on what kind of tree it actually is. Some trees are supposed to get taller than other trees.
Chance: They can get as tall as Paul Bunyan.
Russell: Red pines can get as tall as 150 feet, like the kind outside our window.
Veronica: Has anyone ever wondered about how trees grow?
Isaac: Roots make them grow. The rain seeps into the ground and the roots drink it up.
Sade: Living things need water.
Russell: I think that seeds have holes in them and the water seeps into the seeds and the seeds sprout into trees. It's called a cycle.
Cullyn: Some trees can be planted close together or something and then you have a forest. It can confuse the roots.
Anna: Maybe they get tangled under the ground.
Asa: Trees need nutrients from the soil and water. Nutrients are like vitamins.
Chance: How do nutrients get inside the trees?
Elizabeth: Through the roots.
Cullyn: They are called veins. Veins are also in leaves. I think its pollen that's in the leaves. No ... that's not the word...
Asa: Chlorophyll.
Cullyn: Yes, Asa's right. It's chlorophyll and it makes leaves green.
Veronica: Did you know that certain trees attract a certain kind of bug? I think it's a...
Asa: A jack pine beetle.
Tessa: Yes, and box elder bugs, too.
Cullyn: Bugs use trees for their home.
Asa: It's called a habitat.
Brody: Trees can be used for many things. Birds and animals use trees to escape predators.
Asa: Animals and bugs use trees for shade.
Anna: Birds have babies in them.
Elizabeth: Some things grow on trees. I noticed my tree had combus growing on it.
Asa: Actually, don't you mean fungus, it looks like green lace.
Anna: And it eats the bark. It can make the tree sick. Just like when we get sick from a rash.
Mary: When a tree gets old it sheds dead branches. That can happen in a storm too.
Asa: Old tree branches can turn into habitats for bugs or animals. When they get rotten, they help the soil.
Tessa: I noticed that my tree had buds on it.
Asa: That's one way to tell the difference about trees. Trees with buds that turn into leaves are called deciduous trees. They shed their leaves in the fall.
Elizabeth: Different kinds of trees grow different kinds of leaves. Some are pointy and some are round.
Cullyn: Brown needles sometimes appear on our pine trees.
Anna: That means it's starting to die. Coniferous trees are always green even in the winter.
Elizabeth: I wonder if the trees look the same under the ground.
Cullyn: It's dug far under the ground so it won't fall over.
Anna: The tree stands up really straight because of the roots.
Veronica: The roots go all over the ground and they help the tree stand up.
Asa: I think that a tree might look the same underground, only instead of branches, it has roots.
Cullyn: Did you know that worms are helpful to the soil?
Isaac: Worms help to make nutrients in the dirt.
Anna: Maybe worms help the roots by making tunnels.
Asa: I think that worms are not as big as roots. Roots can be this big.
Anna: We do know that worms are important to the soil because we did an experiment with worms.
Sade: I think that the roots just grow like we do. The roots grow and push through the soil.
Asa: Roots can be as big as some branches.
Tessa: Maybe that's what makes it look like a tree underground and upside down.
Elizabeth: I agree!
DEBRIEF
The conversation lasts about 25 minutes. Overall, the students retain their enthusiasm for the topic throughout. The student debrief lasts only a few minutes. It is short but reflective and serious.
Melanie: Can we name two things we did well?
Asa: We took turns and waited for everybody to stop talking before the next person started.
Anna: We listened to everyone's ideas so we wouldn't repeat an idea.
Melanie: What can we improve on the next time we have a science talk?
Elizabeth: We should make sure that the birds don't make so much noise.
Cullyn: I think we could take turns better so everyone has a chance to say their idea.
FOLLOWING UP
The students are engaged and join the conversation, however there are five children who make no contribution at all or say very little. A few questions come to mind: How do we assess the group when the entire group is not fully contributing? Additionally, the students seem to be able to identify trees as well as classify them, but have they really internalized the idea of the root system? What can I do as a facilitator to explore this concept more? What are the classroom experiments and center activities that can be provided in order to attain the highest quality of understanding?
One example might be to conduct small group science talks in order to provide a more intimate setting for those students that do not like to speak out in a large group. If we are using the science talk as an assessment, then every voice must be heard in order to define the strengths and needs.
The transcript provides for further analysis of concepts, analogies, theories, and vocabulary. For example, there seems to be some confusion among the children as to how the root system develops and grows. Tessa exclaims that "a tree must look the same under ground, the roots look like branches upside down." Two simple science investigations come to mind, the celery stalk in the colored water, and the lima bean in the zipper-lock bag taped to the window (mini-terrarium). Both investigations provide an up-close look at how water travels through the roots and how a root breaks out of its seed coat and finds its way through the dirt looking for moisture and nourishment. The role of the teacher is to facilitate knowledge by providing opportunities for investigations and higher level thinking, and not to deliver the answer.
We encourage children to take a more active role in their learning, even if it means that teachers are letting go of control. This can be difficult for teachers at first, but they will find that the character of their classroom will slowly begin to change from an atmosphere of students seeking quick and "correct" answers from teachers, to teachers asking investigative questions of students in the pursuit of higher level thinking.
Finally, the talk is transcribed and posted on the wall at student height so the students and visitors can read it again and again as the analysis continues.
Jeanne Anderson is a school designer in the Midwest with Expeditionary Learning.
SCIENCE TALKS
Science talks are appropriate for any grade level, but they are particularly useful for elementary school. Like a Socratic seminar, Science talks deal with provocative questions, often posed by the children themselves. Some recent science talks at Anser Charter School, in Boise, Idaho, include: "What makes a bird a bird?" "How do trees stand up?" "How do plants grow from bulbs?" The questions often relate directly to the expedition topic (e.g., birds, trees, or plants and butterflies).
Our version of science talks are based on work by Karen Gallas: Talking Their Way Into Science: Hearing Children's Questions and Theories, Responding with Curricula. NY: Teachers College Press, 1995.
Teacher tools to accompany this article are available here.
Just Starting Socratic Seminars
By Susan Derry
Socratic seminars? That sounded a little lofty for my argumentative, concrete-thinking bunch of sixth graders at Lincoln School in rural Oakland, Oregon. And then there was the preparation and the setting the stage and making sure everything was just right so it would be successful. For me,
it was like gazing through the rain-spattered window on Saturday morning, knowing I needed to get my peas in the ground, but also knowing it would be uncomfortable if I did not layer on the clothes, lace up my boots, and dig out my gloves. And of course the empty fridge, mountain of laundry, and ringing phone always beckoned. Excuses, excuses. The best advice I ever received when pondering how to go about a murky or difficult task was, "Just start." So it was with Socratic seminars. We just plunged in.
We had finished literature circle books on Asian immigrant and refugee experiences. Small groups had read The Starfisher and So Far From the Bamboo Grove by Laurence Yep, The Clay Marble by Minfong Ho, and Dragonwings by Yoko Kawashima. I wanted the students to share their stories with the class through relating to a common text. I came upon the article "The Shaping of The Clay Marble" by Minfong Ho. In this revealing personal essay, Minfong Ho recounts the experiences that compelled her to write the story of Cambodian refugees who fled the Pol Pot regime. We held our first Socratic seminar around this text.
The World Book says Socrates was devoted to bringing out the truth and goodness in people. (I had to look this up afterward because I wondered if there had been anything "Socratic" about our seminar!) Wow. This actually happened. We made our inner and outer circles. We discussed the ground rules and expectations. And then I posed the question: "When we write, we have a purpose for our writing. In the same way, authors write books for a reason. What makes a story worth telling? What compelled Minfong Ho to write hers?" The dialogue began as a trickle but soon flowed steadily, even gushed at times, as one idea lead to another and students spun off each other's thoughts. At times the talk within the circle was so intimate that we had to ask participants to speak louder so we could hear. Before I knew it, the students were discussing the themes of their books. (Ohmygosh!! THEMES?? That elusive, lofty concept that normally gets you blank stares??) And because the students had to quote text to support every comment, it brought out the goodness and truth from the essay and, even better, in each of them.
In debriefing from this and other subsequent seminars, important lessons flowed from the "mouths of babes."
Underlining and note-taking helped me understand better.
I read it more carefully than I usually do.
The longer article last time gave us more to talk about.
I missed being in the circle. I had things to say.
The hardest parts for me have been locating dynamic text and coming up with that thought-provoking question. The hardest parts for the students have been learning to take turns without interrupting, refraining from spouting off opinions that are not anchored in the text, and learning to address their peers instead of me. The easiest, and most rewarding, part for me has been watching them discuss big ideas all by themselves.
This has been a lesson in student empowerment. The playing field is leveled. Everyone is an equal, even me. The Title I students stepped up. The argumentative boys piped down. The sharing of ideas in an accepting environment has spilled over into crew meetings and general classroom culture.
The ultimate assessment of our Socratic seminars, however, came from a student. Near the end of one particularly thought-provoking dialogue, Corinne half whispered, in her articulate little voice, somewhere between a secret and a prayer, "You know, I'm feeling like we're almost a family here."
The peas are flourishing and so are the kids.
Just start.
Susan Derry is a sixth-grade teacher at Lincoln School, a middle school in Oakland, Oregon.
SOCRATIC SEMINARS
The Socratic seminar is used in many Expeditionary Learning classrooms to promote student thinking and meaning making. It offers a structure for a whole-group discussion that encourages the ability to debate, use evidence, and build on one another's thinking. The seminar provides an active role for every student, engages students in complex thinking about rich content, and teaches students discussion skills.
For a related article, please see "Reading Journals, Socratic Seminars, Class Novels, and Literature Circles" in Literacy All Day Long, edited by Emily Cousins, Amy Mednick, and Meg Campbell (Kendall/Hunt Publishing Co., 2000).
Teacher tools to accompany this article are available here.
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